What is the current status of Multizoning audio?

[Marbles_00]

I hate starting another post about it and I apologize that some of the questions could be repeats, but I'm hoping to have this as a summary for all the other post conerning multizoning audio. I've seen lot's of post concerning multizoning audio, but most seem to just end without any conclusions. What is the current status of it? A few people have had sync problems, have they been sorted out? Is the "dummy" channel still a requirement to achieve sync across all other zones? What is the concensous on the KX drivers?

I've tried shoutcast but noticed the sync issues that hjackson mentioned in a reply to me, so before spending the time and resources to pop holes for speakers and running speaker wire runs, I just want to know if it is worth the hassle, or do I really need to save a boat load of money for a true distributed system (which in that case, I will "can" the whole idea).

What I was thinking about now was to have a dedicateted Xlobby server with multiple soundcards (or an Audigy or Live 5.1 using KX drivers) going to a multi-channel amp that I'm designing (modest 30W/channel for 3 to 6 zones). I would then have a dedicated HTPC running Xlobby that could control the server, as well as a PPC that will be used to set up specific zones. An example would be that my wife would want to take a bath so she would use the PPC to set up that zone. I could then borrow the PPC to set up a different zone elsewhere. Then we could use the PPC to set up all zones for a party, or my kids could set up a zone using the HTPC. Can this be done now currently with out too many setup hassles?

Finally, I understand that multiple Winamps (or Foobar's) are required for running each zone, but how does one set up a party inviroment that utilizes all the individual zones in sync? Is it as simple as seting up a dedicated winamp instance to utilize all the outputs? (I haven't looked to intently at anyones skin to fully understand this)

I'm hoping that this post will generate responses of individual's experiences, maybe other people will be inclined to post their questions and concerns. Ultimately I'm hoping as mentioned above that this post can be used to summarize the whole multizone audio with Xlobby experience.

[Marbles_00]

Sorry to double post, but...

I looked at a few skins and reread Colby's Event Variable doc, and didn't realize before that Xlobby had a "zone sync all" command that combines all the zones automatically (Steve did all the difficult work). Is it also safe to assume that zones 1,2,3...X are set up in the order that they are entered in the Setup/General/Foobar/Winamp zones window where zone1 will be at the top, zone 2 below, zone X would be at the bottom of the list?

I also found a post that more or less indicates that a roaming PPC for zone control is possible so that question is answered. I guess the main thing is if you have used Xlobby for multizoning, what do you think about it? Are there still sync issues? Is the dummy zone still required? Is it worth the effort?

[rhinoman]

I use xlobby with 8 zones via an rme with ape files. Sync play works....ish. Its fair but not perfect. I also use a radio stream via a local shoutcast server in 128k and that syncs perfectly.

I dont use a dummy zone but I do use foobar instead of winamp.

Is it worth the effort?

No other program currently does better with the same facilites.

[hjackson]

... and to cut down on your speaker wiring demands, there is now this:http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/1587/microlink_dlan_audio ... and don't forget that you can also use flat speaker wire http://www.21st-century-goods.com/page/21st/CTGY/AVFW .

hjackson

[jazzar]

... and to cut down on your speaker wiring demands, there is now this:http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/1587/microlink_dlan_audio ... and don't forget that you can also use flat speaker wire http://www.21st-century-goods.com/page/21st/CTGY/AVFW .

hjackson

Hi
I'm new to Xlobby but have been using microlan dlink audio with WMP. I not sure about multizones and how to set them up.
Do you know if these will work in a multizone enviroment via Xlobby?. They have a plugin for winamp which seems to work via Xlobby in a single zone setup although seems to slow the playing of music down quite a bit.

[Marbles_00]

Actually rhinoman, I'm glad that you answered. Your one of the ones I was hoping for as you seem to have been very involved in talking to Steven about the sync issues. Did you ever try his Maxdifference (I think that's what it was) adjustment line in xlobby.xml. What happened there.

I'm also curious as to how you were able to sync your shoutcast. I tried it at 128K and sure it started off really good, but slowly went way out of sync by the 5th song. There was a noticable .5 sec delay between the two computer I was trying it with. Do you use a GLAN or some interesting setup with the server?

Hjackson, the flat speaker wire would be good for short runs under carpet, but at ~$1.50/foot + shipping (that's most likely US prices), I'd rather just use 12AWG or 14AWG zip cord.

I'm going to look more at that DLAN and see what that's all about. Could be promising.

[rhinoman]

I found that Steves max difference stuff helped, a bigger processor (from a 2.8 p4 to a 3500 amd 64) also helped and I recently tried a 4400+x2 but this doesn't so far seem to make any difference (but I didn't clean load the OS so thats still to try).

My current situation is that sync works mostly. It starts off a little out but within 30 secs seems to sort itself out and everything runs ok for a bit, but sometimes I have a zone that after a few tracks gets left behind and replays an old track, it also happens to be the last zone in the sequence.

My shoutcast server is used purely for a radio stream from a regular uhf radio deck, this outputs its 128k stream onto my network where xlobby via foobar can then replay it. I'm not using it from one machine to the other, its all in my xlobby server. In this way the sync is perfect always. This leads me too conclude that it could be an issue bewteen my large ape files and the amount of zones combined with decoding requirements and hard drive speeds.

I dont use sync all that much just partys, the feature I would like is to be able to group a couple of zones and sync those without the rest. I'm not holding my breath though, Steve seems to be a bit quiet at he moment.

[Marbles_00]

Steve has been very silent. The last I heard of him, he was right involved with Battlefield 2. He's been so busy with this and most likely a ton of other things in his life, it's good for him to take a break. With responding to issues on this board, to keeping up the coding with Xlobby, trying to incorporate all our requests...hey, take a few months off man, enjoy your life.

Grouping a couple of zones seperate from the rest would be cool.

I wonder how samgreco and sdumas like the multizoning as they seem to be some of the pioneers/test subjects for when Steve first introduced the concept? I wonder if they still use it?

[samgreco]

I wonder how samgreco and sdumas like the multizoning as they seem to be some of the pioneers/test subjects for when Steve first introduced the concept? I wonder if they still use it?

Don't know if I've EVER been called a pioneer before

Actually, I helped Steven do some testing early on because I had a recording studio and could easily setup 16 'zones' even though it was really all in my control room.

I have since moved and haven't setup anything here yet. One of the reasons that I haven't been as active lately. I hope to get started in the next couple of weeks.

My current situation is that sync works mostly. It starts off a little out but within 30 secs seems to sort itself out and everything runs ok for a bit, but sometimes I have a zone that after a few tracks gets left behind and replays an old track, it also happens to be the last zone in the sequence.

rhinoman - This concerns me a bit. How often does it happen? Have you tried to setup a 'dummy' last zone? I remember early on that a dummy 1st zone helped some cases.

[rhinoman]

Sam,

It happens pretty regular at the moment when using music files, never when pulling from the shoutcast server. No I haven't tried a dummy last zone, I'll give it a try.

Cheers

[Marbles_00]

Nice to hear from you samgreco. You were the first to respond to Steve's post about multizoning. With your slew of equipment and some very well responded, informative posts that helped Steve up to this current time, I would consider you a pioneer *bowing on knees saying "we're not worthy, we're not worthy*. It sounds as though you had some good success using Xlobby as multizoning (even though it was confined to your studio)? Now that you are in a new house, are you considering going that route for your home? Or have you decided to go away from that and towards a more zoning dedicated view with using off the shelf, dedicated equipment for that purpose?

Looking at the "sync all" command, how does that work? I mean if each instance of Winamp is dedicated to a different zone output, each with its own playlist, and you click on sync all, does the playlist from zone1 winamp get copied over to the other zones playlist, replacing their own? How do all the seperate winamp instances play off of one playlist? I'm curious, and just trying to understand how Steve did it.

[samgreco]

Now that you are in a new house, are you considering going that route for your home? Or have you decided to go away from that and towards a more zoning dedicated view with using off the shelf, dedicated equipment for that purpose?

I haven't decided yet. The loss of sync bugs me. When we're throwing a party, I want to start my playlist and not think about it again. The idea of having to stop and start again, multiple times during a party, does not appeal to me.

I am actually looking at more of an electronic patchbay idea for "all zones" playback. The M-Audio Delta 1010LT has 10 ins and 10 outs, but as I understand, you can select different presets that can route ins to outs any way you'd like. So I can route one set of ins (internal MP3s) to all outs, so that only one stream s really playing. Much less strain on the CPU and Hard Drive systems. Plus, as a bonus, I can connect a couple of tuners for local radio.

The reason that the zones fall out of sync in XLobby usually is that you are actually sending multiple streams of the same file out simultaneously. So if you have 3 zones, Winamp opens 3 copies of the same MP3 file and streams them. 3 times the throughput one the drives and the CPU.

Now, I get 32 tracks (equivalent to 16 zones) in my studio, but I have a fast Ultrawide SCSI subsystem, 2 16 channel, DSP controlled audio cards. AND the software is built for multiple tracks to stay in sync. So it is possible

I'll let you know what happens.

[rhinoman]

Hi Sam,

The sync is sure frustrating.

I originally swapped from 2 delta 410's to the RME card with 2 output cards because the RME is zero system load for ASIO out, thinking that it might help, it didn't really.

The upgraded processor did improve things.

I've suspected for a while that my problems could be disk I/O related. I swapped my Highpoint Raid 5 array using 300gb matxor 5400rpm drives for a hardware XOR XFX raid 5 card using 300gb 7200rpm SATA drives but this still sits in a regular PCI slot so bus speed could now be an issue. In fact this seems to perform better if the array is in a different machine to xlobby pulling across gig lan.

The electronic patch bay idea is interesting. I think buffereing one zone in ram and repeating that is perhaps the way to go as opposed to pulling multiple streams from the same drive may be the key for music. This is probably what happens with my shoutcast stream for my radio deck.

Like you describe for the delta 1010, the RME HDSP series (not what I have unfortunatly) has a mixer that allows any stream to be output anywhere,saved as a config file. For multiroom sync this may well work just having a different config for day to day use. Girder could call the alternative config when sync is required. The disadvantage is this becomes far more hardware dependent and the costs escalate. Still cheap for the final result though.

Let us know what you experiment with, good and bad rsults as it helps us all. Trying different stuff that doesn't make much difference is the bit that hurts most.

[samgreco]

rhinoman,

The PCI Bus is not a problem. My SCSI card is an Adaptec 29160. So it uses the standard PCI bus. I think it's just the efficiencies of the SCSI protocol. CPU usage on my recording system with 32 tracks running was under 10%. And that was before I upgraded from my Pentium II 750Mhz and the old Adaptec AHA2940W! So I think there is a lot more to it than the PCI bus. On the new 3.0Ghz board, it barely touches the CPU. I can use endless amounts of plugins now.

And as for the electronic patchbay thing. It literally connects one stereo pair to multiple outputs, just like connecting wires in parallel. So as far as the CPU is concerned, it's just playing one MP3 file.

Anyway, I'll let you know how it goes.

[rhinoman]

Sam,

Interesting...... Only touble with scsi is cost for space.


The patchbay idea may be a problem with setting different volume levels in each room? At the moment the advantage with the multiple winamp/foobars is independent volume control.

What do you think about the idea of a master music feed being buffered in ram?