What is the current status of Multizoning audio?

[rbziggy]

Great news. Seems that you could setup XLobby to shut down any individual zones whenever you go to "all zones" with events.

Yes, that's exactly what you would need to do to make sure. Probably not really too difficult.

Tell us how you get on!

[briands]

Thats basically what shoutcast does, shoutcast creates a music stream at an ip adress on your network. Winamp or foobar then just points at the url of the stream. As I've said I use this to put a uhf radio deck on my system and at 128k mo3 quality the sync is perfect.

This is really all above my experience, but I was thinking along this line too. I'm sure it would be a major restructure for the way XLOBBY works, but what about this.

It would be two parts - Channels and zones

You would configure a home channel for each zone. These would be configured as it's own shoutcast stream (IP/ port or whatever) controlled by the associated zone.

Each zone could also select any channel to sync to. This would simply switch to the appropriate playback zone to the specified channel. For further improvement, you might allow any zone that is synced to control that particular stream, but this might be tricky, otherwise it is simply an observer.

I think this could work with multiple zones within one system as well as both fat and thin clients.

It would be a bit like doing video distribution with multiple RF modulators. Rather than attaching each source to each TV, you connect each source to a modulator set to a different channel. Each TV would default to the channel for it's source, but could be easily synced to any other device by simply tuning the appropriate channel. Control would be maintained by the "home" zone.

[Marbles_00]

rbziggy,

This is great news. That was an excellent find. How long have you been up and running now?

I also found a site that has Output Stacker and an alternative use for it
http://maison.emdx.org/Crackster/

If this ends up being a robust performer, then I will no doubt go ahead and run wiring/build the amp and set up multizoning all with using Xlobby.

Keep us informed.

I also want to say thanks for keeping this post going guys/gals. This has been really informative for myself and, I hope, for all.

[rhinoman]

Richard,

I'm glad to see you have this working

I haven't got a lot of chance to try this for a couple of days so perhaps you can answer-

When you say balance the zones up on the soundcard/poweramp I take it you mean that the max volume for each zone needs to be set first, then the stacker winamp sends an equal signal which can be adjusted up and down from the stacker zone?

Does it not send a signal to seperate winamps?

Wont this mean we will need a seperate install in this case where each zone is pointed at stacker instead of individual created?

Cheers

[rhinoman]

Briands

You would configure a home channel for each zone. These would be configured as it's own shoutcast stream (IP/ port or whatever) controlled by the associated zone.

Each zone could also select any channel to sync to. This would simply switch to the appropriate playback zone to the specified channel. For further improvement, you might allow any zone that is synced to control that particular stream, but this might be tricky, otherwise it is simply an observer.

I think you are thinking along the correct lines but to acheive this at the moment we would need a bunch of extra stuff to be added to xlobby by Steve.

Right now if we used xlobby installed on one machine, controlled by whatever method with a single zone being picked up by a shoutacst server,this would be for music selection. This shoutcast stream could then be picked up by a second xlobby machine containg the zones. This zone machine would need seperate control. Because there would only be a single pull of music from the hard drive, it would in theory overcome the sync issue I have.

It may be possible to combine this into one machine but we would need to be able to drop the control/selection zone out of the sync which I don't think is possible yet.

[rhinoman]

Marbles

I also want to say thanks for keeping this post going guys/gals. This has been really informative for myself and, I hope, for all.

I agree, its about time this forum got some life back and the multiroom, thin/thick client architecture is what steps xlobby apart from all the other front end solutions so between us I think we should get this sussed out. Whether its hardware/software/resources or programming needed to get this nailed.

[rbziggy]

This is great news. That was an excellent find. How long have you been up and running now?

Well, this has been an extensive long term test. Must have had it going for all of 3-4 playing hours today.

However, I have done a fair bit of switching between zones and all-zones and it doesn't seem to get confused so its looking good so far.

(On your other observation about output splitter, I gathered from the winamp site that it's a bit 'controversial' in that it does have this alternative, some might say controversial use too. I couldn't find it in the plugins section and saw something to the effect that it had been 'removed' because of copyrighting pressure.)

[rbziggy]

When you say balance the zones up on the soundcard/poweramp I take it you mean that the max volume for each zone needs to be set first, then the stacker winamp sends an equal signal which can be adjusted up and down from the stacker zone?

Not quite sure I follow - or perhaps explained myself that well. There are (at least I seem to have) a number of ways of setting zone volumes. I have soundblaster cards and the kx drivers.

- First, the max overall volume of the soundcard can be set. I think this is essentially the same as the windows master volume (but is done on the KX config tool). This allows max vol for all zones to be set.
- Second, the KX driver allows each of the 3 stereo pair output channels to be individually set. This allows for differential setting to be set for each zone (hence balancing apparent vol levels between rooms).
- Third, my poweramp (a Russound 12 channel unit) alloes variable gain to be set for each channel. Essentially this is just the same as the point above.

Between these I just preset the 'right' max volume levels for each zone so that, around the house, when each XL zone shows the same volume level (e.g. 30) the sound seems about the same. Once setup, I never touch this lot (thankfully).

Varying the volume is then done entirely through XL which changes the Winamp output level.

Conseqently, as ther is only one winamp instance driving all your zones, the XL-winamp volume changes all equally up or down. This could be a bit of a drawback as you cannot independently turnup/down one of the zones but I think I can live with this if everything is simple and stays in sync. For me, the balanced levels to start with are also a help as I know '30' sounds the same in all zones anyway.

Does it not send a signal to seperate winamps?

Wont this mean we will need a seperate install in this case where each zone is pointed at stacker instead of individual created?

Again not quite sure I understand you here. But to be explicit, essentially, you keep all your winamp instances for the individual zones as is.

Then to get the multizone you then create another winamp instance as you do for a normal zone but this time use stacker for that instance and link it to as many of the original zones as you want. Thus for each group of multizones (e.g. all, upstairs, downstairs) you need another winamp instance running. Personally, I don't see this as much of a real world issue as I only likely to want 2 or 3 multiple linked zones max. However, if you want every possible combination (e.g. for 3 zones 1+2+3, 1+2. 2+3, 1+3) you would rapidly need a very large set of additional winamp instances.

Does that answer your questions?

Richard

[samgreco]

Again not quite sure I understand you here. But to be explicit, essentially, you keep all your winamp instances for the individual zones as is.

Then to get the multizone you then create another winamp instance as you do for a normal zone but this time use stacker for that instance and link it to as many of the original zones as you want. Thus for each group of multizones (e.g. all, upstairs, downstairs) you need another winamp instance running. Personally, I don't see this as much of a real world issue as I only likely to want 2 or 3 multiple linked zones max. However, if you want every possible combination (e.g. for 3 zones 1+2+3, 1+2. 2+3, 1+3) you would rapidly need a very large set of additional winamp instances.

Does that answer your questions?

This is EXACTLY what I had hoped to hear I think this will be a simple solution. Now we just need to be able to turn zones on and off as needed via events or ???

[Chazotta]

Using the Winamp stacker sounds great. As Sam has indicated, all that really needs doing now is to be able to stop the audio in a given zone. Lets say you have audio going through 3 zones and then the person in zone 3 wants to stop the music in that zone, if they dial up the thin client they need to be able to unselect or stop zone 3. Can it be done ? Could it be done in such a way that the person in zone 3 could only stop (or start) the audio from playing in zone 3, in other words so that they cant control the audio in another zone (like a child lock feature) ?

[Marbles_00]

Well, I'm a little while away from testing this sort of setup myself, so I'm hoping that others can keep on going where rbziggy started. Hat's off to rbziggy for finding such a plugin for winamp.

Once Steve comes back to us, he should be happy to hear that something that has been a daunting task may have come to a conclusion.

Hopefully this thread will continue as a main source for multizoning information to help make it easier for individuals to find answers to their questions. Maybe this discussion could go towards controlling the zones? Or helping individuals who are attempting to stream?

Here are two basic examples that rbziggy, myself, rhinoman, samgreco were discussing. Now I only showed the Xlobby "server" that would be sourcing the winamp music. Other xlobby clients, whether they be fat, thin, PPC would control either individual zones or multiple/all zones. It is dependant on the individual's requirments for Xlobby.

http://xlobby.myphotoalbum.com/view_pho ... zone_type1

[Chazotta]

Once Steve comes back to us, he should be happy to hear that something that has been a daunting task may have come to a conclusion.

Seems that all that would be required is to make Xlobby be able to add and remove zones with the Winamp stacker plugin, whether it is an event or whatever. I wonder if it is possible to entice Steve back into development if enough of us chip in with some $$ ?

[Marbles_00]

Could it be done in such a way that the person in zone 3 could only stop (or start) the audio from playing in zone 3, in other words so that they cant control the audio in another zone (like a child lock feature) ?

It should be able to be done by first setting up multiple instances of winamp to cover that specific configuration of leaving off zone3. Then set up an appropriate button in Xlobby on the server hosting all the zones. To select that button, a client in zone3 could then be connected to the server via web server or Xnet (not sure how Xnet is used as I haven't personally tried it).

I guess a few drawbacks to this is that, one, when switching from one instance to another, there will be a pause in the music across all zones while the alternative winamp loads up. The second problem would be that you could have a different playlist loaded. Example, Person A is listening to classical music in all zones. Person B want's to listen to Iron Maiden in zone3. Person B selects zone3 and alows the other zones still to be connected, only when that winamp is loaded (to cover the remaining syched zones), a burst of AC/DC is thrown out across the zones where Person A had been listening to classical (because that winamp's playlist had not been altered from the last time used). The third drawback, tied in with the second, would be that upon Person B selecting zone3 for themselves, and all the other zones still tied, Person A would have to select a new playlist to cover that situation. Causing a pause in the music.

Though that example could be an extreme, maybe with some thought and planning when setting up the multipe configurations, it may be avoided. Possibly winamp may have a plugin that will share playlists from one instance to another? Personally I'm like rbziggy, where I am either going to have single zone or all tied together. Or I may leave off the bathroom zone from the party configuration so when my kids are old enough to have a party, my wife and I can lock ourselves in the bathroom upstairs and still make *cough* I mean have our own music in that paritcular zone.

[rbziggy]

[Seems that all that would be required is to make Xlobby be able to add and remove zones with the Winamp stacker plugin, whether it is an event or whatever.

I suspect that there is no way to remove/add zones in 'output stacker' as its a pretty basic plugin. However I found another plugin called multi output. This works and does the same but has a bit more sophisticated output in that it works from the winamp menu structure and, through this, does allow selection/deselection of outputs (i.e. zones) during playback.

I don't know if there is some sort of programmatic approach to accessing winamp menu structures. If there is, it's the sort of thing Steve could make work with this other plugin.

BTW, seems winamp do not keep these plugins on their plugin section because they nave a non-legitimate use in ripping copyright / DRM music.

Richard

[rbziggy]

Thought I'd add a bit more feed back from playing today.

As far as I can tell, once set up, this output stacker config is pretty robust. Switching back & forth, everything stays put and in sync.

Found one warning on Winamp forums that synch cant be guaranteed as different soundcards may have different buffering and characteristics. Seems to me that that this would be a problem in any case and would affect any synch technique - pretty hard to beat the limitations of the hardware.

One thing I do want to let you know about. I have had a problem at XL (and thus winamp) startup. At startup, each of the 'stacked' direct sound (dlls) versions revert to the same soundcard (i.e. sound for the 3 zones comes out of one set of speakers!). Going into the winamp output setup and pointing them to the right soundcard sorts it out and this works fine until you close/restart xl. Clearly this is not very desirable (especially if you set up several multizones). I think it must be a config file problem but I can't find anything in winamp.ini that shows the directsound output soundcard as a config item. Don't seem to be able to find it elsewhere. Now this must be a config item but where??? (Registry???) Does anyone know - I'd be grateful for a pointer!

Richard