A general point about skin navigation

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A general point about skin navigation

Postby mynci on Wed Jun 02, 2004 8:42 am

hi,
i have been watching xlobbys progress for some time now, had a few goes at editing some skins (so they look right at my res, and to get 'odd' features i look for). it occurs to me that xlobby could do with a really intuitive user interface (please dont misunderstand me by thinking i dont apreciate the efforts put in so far, i do, they are all far far better than anything i could ever hope to realise).
However, currently the skin designs are all a little cumbersome to navigate (IMHO), partly this is because the keyboard shortcuts arnt working (I think) and therefore it is necessary to control even the play/stop and volume etc with buttons, rather than a remote/keyboard. i think it is also partly due to the 'arrow key and return' policy for navigation. for example, i have looked at the demo of sage tv, and while it will not do what i want of it, it does have a reasonably intuitive user interface, with up and down moving between menu items, left always going back a screen and right selecting a menu option. if this form of navigaton was incorperated into, say, the menu system of the xtuned skin it would (to me anyway) be a lot more intutive.
i also feel that the issues that the visual xlobby skin has tried to address are very important, but for a really slick interface it could use a little polishing both visually and from a design point of view.

there are then several features that could be of interest. i suspect that people (mostly) will be operating xlobby via a remote, my remote basically emulates keyboard commands so i can combine the shortcut key abilities with this to aceive most of my shortcut goals, and others are using girder to achieve a similar thing. it would, perhaps be possible o agree on a set of keys which all remotes tedn to have, play, pause, stop, vol up, vol down, channel up(use as track skip), channel down, fast fwd, rew, a menu button of some type, an exit button and mute. and these functions could always be excluded from the skins interfaces (or perhaps tucked out of sight on a floating menu).
this could make for a less cluttered skin capable of more functions.
i woudl also like to see a greater ability to control play lists, allowing users to select songs or albums and either, add to playlist (as next song), add to playlist(at the end), or play now(and clear playlist).
but i suspect these features are relatively simple to implement in any skin, we just need to rigt ui.
most of my focus is on the audio playing aspects of xlobby as this is the one area im yet to find a truely good media player (i use zoom at the moment as its navigaton menus and 'play all files in this directory' option let me aproximate the funtionality i want).

i am not sure if this is useful to anyone, i may have just stated a load of things that no one cares about, or indeed stated the obvious. if these features could be incorperated into xlobby then it would certanly become my htpc media player front end and as soon as i had some money, there would be a donation going the apropriate way.

i would like to state very clearly that i am not tryng to belittle the efforts of the skinners, merely trying to point out the things that i, as an end user, would like to see. so please dont take any offence.

many thanks
mynci.
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Postby Colby on Wed Jun 02, 2004 4:06 pm

I have said this many times before, "if you dont like it change it." One of the greatest tools about xlobby, is the ability to create your own interface. I assume most skin engineers use their own skin here. We created them for ourselves and then distributed them for others who may want to use them. If a skin doesnt suit your needs we dont feel blamed or offended if you dont use them. Create your own. Everything you said about "a lot more intutive." is only opinion. I could care less about keyboard shortcuts cause I use a touchscreen. And you can change your left right up down nav very simply with the navigation override and any skin.
but for a really slick interface it could use a little polishing both visually and from a design point of view.

I am wondering what gives you the expertise to be criticle of someones design and/or visual contributions, when we have yet to see or test any skin from you. my mom always said, "if you dont have something nice to say than keep it to yourself."
ability to control play lists, allowing users to select songs or albums and either, add to playlist (as next song), add to playlist(at the end), or play now(and clear playlist).

I dont think I understand how xlobby isnt working for you. I know in my skin I click a track and its added to the playlist. I click the title of the album and the album is added. I open the playlist overly and I can load or delete from the playlist. What more control do you need?

Now my disclaimer: I dont take offence as a skinner and I understand you are only pointing out what you feel as an enduser. that's good. I feel as if youre saying "there is no perfect skin out there for me yet in how I would use it." Probably not. My advice would be to build or modify a skin. When you get stuck or need graphics ask for help. I know thats what Qtip and Mfan did with my skin.
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Postby Arthur on Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:21 pm

I'm not a skin engineer an most probably necer will be either. So I just stood in a corner waiting for someone to post a nice skin.
I like jowaldo's skin. However, a lot of the stuff I'm interested in, wasn't implementen in jowaldo's skin, like a link to my babycam (I can't believe jowaldo can live withoit one :D ). I needed extra buttons on the main screen etc. So what I did was I downloaded the skin and modified it. It is very easy and jowaldo was willing to help, he even mailed a photoshop file of his buttons to me (In his latest release, no need to modify buttons in photoshop anymore).
I transleted the skin to dutch (only the weather plugin is in english)
I'm thinking of deleting the ppc screens which are in his skin, as I don't use them (eventhough he put a lot of effort in those, sorry jowaldo).
Jowaldo doesn't have any TV support in his skin, so I'm adding it myself.
This way I'll end up with a skin perfectly suited for me. At a fraction of the effort jowaldo did put into it.
If you start with a skin you like, you can improve it.
I don't think it would have been possible for jowaldo to make a skin which was perfect for all input devices (keyboard, touchscreen, remote, mouse, ppc) on all kinds of resolutions (15" , 21", TV, beamer (a few months ago a discussion took place on what should be the main colour of a screen in order to get good results on a beamer))
So my advice would be, download a few skins you like, try the skins, Take the one you like most, modify it to make it more suited.

Arthur
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Postby jowaldo on Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:17 am

Arthur wrote:
I don't think it would have been possible for jowaldo to make a skin which was perfect for all input devices (keyboard, touchscreen, remote, mouse, ppc) on all kinds of resolutions (15" , 21", TV, beamer (a few months ago a discussion took place on what should be the main colour of a screen in order to get good results on a beamer))
So my advice would be, download a few skins you like, try the skins, Take the one you like most, modify it to make it more suited.

Arthur


Yup thats my feelings exactly... No way I could make anything that would make everyone happy. I have added all the things I personally use, and am starting to add other screen people have requested (games, multizone, etc) Then you get into the issue of display devices... I purposely (especially in the last release) tried to make it as flexible as possible.
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Postby mynci on Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:30 am

sorry, for some reason i didnt get an email telling me people had responded.

Colby:i have absolutely no right, beyond intending to be helpful(not a right, i grant you but it was meant to be a consructive critisism, not just critisism), i absolutely could not do better, i have tweaked the skins (as best as i can) however my design skills are frankly crap. i could not produce a skin even close to the standards you guys have created.

"Everything you said about "a lot more intutive." is only opinion" it certanly is, i mainly brought it up in the hope that someone else may agree, and using some sort of amazing design skill produce the perfect skin for me :).
what i really intended to get accross from this is that (and im sure the skin engineers have created the skins to be intuitive to them) i dont find tem intuitive, especially from the point of view of a user with a remote contol (as i thought most people would be).

Arthur, i agree, that is what i have been doing (albeit to a lesser extent). it occurs to me that at some stage however, xlobby with be a 'finised' product, in that ifi have an htpc i can cose to download it and some plugins and thats my htpc software needs covered. to do this there will need to be a range of skins to suit all users. the standard user wont want to alter the skins. i get tat the skins arnt made to serve a wider community, just the people who made tem. they are just generous enough to let others use (and alter them).

i think the overall point i was tring to make, perhaps, is that for remote control operation there is no ideal skin (yet). wen i say that a skin could do with polishing i mean to say when you compare to the slick interfaces availible for say, a set top box like a tivo. now i dont mean to say that te tivo is the perfect interface and i want a skin to emulate it, just that its created witha view to remote controll operation as the primary input.

im not great at explainng what i mean, i will try to be clearer in future, peraps if i have time in the next few days ill have a go at creating one page of a skin as an example of what i mean, it wont be pretty, slick or intuitive, im sure but will peraps illustrate my point.

many thanks for all of your replies and again i am not trying to belittle the skinners efforts thus far in any way.
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Postby dalanik on Thu Jun 03, 2004 8:53 am

Colby wrote:
but for a really slick interface it could use a little polishing both visually and from a design point of view.

I am wondering what gives you the expertise to be criticle of someones design and/or visual contributions, when we have yet to see or test any skin from you. my mom always said, "if you dont have something nice to say than keep it to yourself."


Mynci is quite right, and I don't see reason why anyone should be offended.

I also think that, even thou prefectly designed graphically, all existing skins (except mine, which is a crap, so to say, graphically :-) ) are way too complex to be used with the remote. Yes, they CAN be used, or SOME can be used, but they're not intuitive as i.e. navigating the TV or other consumer electronic devices.

That's why I created Visual skin in the first place. I wanted something logical. Sorry - but when you put buttons under angle or in a circle, it's just not logical to me. Remember that remotes only use up/dn/left/right, so buttons have to be in columns or rows, no matter how quaint this might look to anyone.

Now... my skin looks pretty ordinary and it would look even worse if I didn't "steal" buttons from Colby... and that's because I'm not an graphics designer. I'm an IT pro, and I did programming for a living, and been involved in computers for the past 18 years professionally, but I simply know nothing of graphical programs. My greatest achievement is to use Paint Shop Pro to do touchups to the already created images.

Now we begin to see the problem... everything that is designer-wise "sleek" and causes "oooohhh"'s and "ahhhh"'s is probably going to be real horror to use with the remote control....

I believe that people with touch-screens don't care much about this, but I'm speaking from the point of view of someone using HTPC with a remote.

But that's life... All approaches have cons and pros....

D.
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Postby jowaldo on Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:25 pm

dalanik wrote:
I believe that people with touch-screens don't care much about this, but I'm speaking from the point of view of someone using HTPC with a remote.

But that's life... All approaches have cons and pros....

D.


Very true, I didn't even start to think about remote control of my skin... That's just another reason as to why probably no skin someone comes accross will fit their needs perfectly.
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Postby Colby on Thu Jun 03, 2004 7:08 pm

I am sorry if I sounded offended. I was just sticking up for skinners becuase I know how much effort is required to create a skin from scratch.
in the hope that someone else may agree, and using some sort of amazing design skill produce the perfect skin for me
Isnt that something we all want mynci.:)

It seems like there is a lot of rederick and discussion over the ideal navigation for skins.
Remember that remotes only use up/dn/left/right, so buttons have to be in columns or rows, no matter how quaint this might look to anyone.
I think the navigation override works fine as a solution for this. You can tell every button where to nav to and from. Everything doesnt have to be in colums to be logical.
Now we begin to see the problem... everything that is designer-wise....is probably going to be real horror to use with the remote control....
I strongly disagree, that nice skin designs have to be a horror for remotes.
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Postby noviceboy on Thu Jun 03, 2004 7:42 pm

Just my 2 € cents.

In xlobby there is probably (getting) close to everything you need to make your "perfect skin" with the exception of graphic style elements. But that's what the skinner folks put the hours in on. The skinning stuff is pretty much easy, because Xlobby in it's current state makes it so.


"and therefore it is necessary to control even the play/stop and volume etc with buttons, rather than a remote/keyboard."

Did not read your whole post, but all events can be activated via an external event. So you can ideed map your remote play/stop buttons to fire off Xlobby events without the need to have visible buttons. You can even make it context sensitive. So for example he same PLAY button on your remote starts music or starts a Video ( depending on your event logic )

Now you can debate the best way to handle remote control 'till the cows come home. The lowest common denominator says your most basic set up can operate with 6 keys. Up/DOWN/LEFT/RIGHT and Enter and a Cancel key. These being applied to on screen buttons and menu lists.

Look at how digital Sat boxes work with their OSDs and you will see this in action. However, if like me you get completely nerved by going through hierarchical menus you want to do it another way. Xlobby lets you do that.

For me the real value of the skinners is the inspiration they give others, the collection of graphics that end up being made available, and for some people one is pretty close to their perfect skin. Xlobby and you does the rest to make it perfect.

Eventually there will be a critical mass of skins for every personal situation.
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