What is the current status of Multizoning audio?

[Shaggy]

One possible problem with multizone and ASIO in winamp is it bypasses the windows wave volume slider wich is what winamp uses to adjust its volume. The winamp volume slider doesnt affect the output level so you would get no independent zone volume control.

[rhinoman]

I use foobar because winamp doesn't give volume control via waveout on my rme cards. Foobar does? I dont have asio problems as the rme driver is written to avoid the windows mixer.

Sam,
Your findings with a zone playing the wrong song is very similar to mine with what I described as a zone getting left behind. It happens regualrly but not predictably.

I have tried experimenting with smaller files. I converted a copy of a chunk of my ape files to 320k mp3 to see if the smaller file size would help, but I still have the same issue with a zone losing track of what it should be playing. I'm going to have another attempt with 128k mp3 which is what I use for my portable player.

I think that most of my problem is as we established and purely related to the speed of reading from the hard disk. Although I'm curious to know whether there may be a bug with xlobby that means that its not checking to see that all the playlists are playiing the same track, hence a zone getting left behind.

The other thing I'm going to try is to set up a shoutcast playlist encoding at 320k on another machine and sync xlobby to that. I know it works fine with my radio deck but the playlist never changes so nothing has the chance to get left behind.

[samgreco]

I plan on trying an experiment with some multitrack recording software to see how many streams it can handle. My regular job is selling pro audio gear as a factory rep. I and my customers routinely have 20 to 30 tracks playing back at once while recording more. And they'd better be in synch

If that software works, then the problem is not hard drive related or hardware related, but software.

I'm sure that the output stacker idea will work, but it's kludgy at best.

I'll report back later.

[GFORCE]

i just set the buffer in winamp to its max from the default 2000ms

it helps but make sure the installations are not on the same hdd that has the music or OS.

ive got a 3Gb Drive just for them

It helps alot

[samgreco]

GFORCE - Are you saying that you are not experiencing these issues? If not, I'd like to know more about your setup.

[GFORCE]

im not experiencing all of these issues just the one how a zone falls out of sync.

I think it has to do with Hard Disk Speed and PCI Bus Latency.

[rbziggy]

I think it has to do with Hard Disk Speed and PCI Bus Latency.

Hmm...

If the sync issues really relate to the inherent architecture of the PC, then it does draw you to the conclusion that the current, in-built, multi streaming approach is itself fundamentally flawed. It seems to me that the multi streaming of the same track from HD, through the bus and processor to multiple instances of winamp is a recipe for exposing the weaknesses of the architecture because it is hitting the same resource, all the way down to the same physical disc sectors. It strikes me that you couldn't really design a better stress test if you tried.

Clearly, higher performance hardware (esp disks) would help aleviate the issues (hence perhaps seeing the probs reduce if you use multiple discs). However, it sort of detracts from the xlobby ethos. Its 'nice' having a 'free' application but its fairly pointless if you need to compensate by using a sophisticated (expensive) striped RAIDS and powerful processors etc etc.

I would think that about the only way to guarantee everything could be brought into sync is to, somehow, enforce a catch-up sysnc point in the higher (application/soundcard) layers so that any latency is brought back into line just before the sound is pumped out of the soundcard itself. I guess this is the current workaround approach taken to tweeking the buffer lengths. However, this is essentially a static adjustment and cannot have any effect on dynamic performance issues; essentially, it has to assume that the latency effects will remain constant. This has to be an unsafe assumption (and seems to be proven to be the case in practice). What's needed is some kind of dynamic buffering adjustment which monitors actual performance in real time. I'm unaware that such a feature exists in the PC/Windows architecture (unless anyone knows better.)

I'm not having a whinge here, just wondering that, perhaps, its best to recognise that this path is really a dead end that no amount of smart programming in the application layer is likely to find a way through.

(Oh, I've seen enough application teams in the past overcome by these type of inherent performance issues and come to the conclusion that the only way round - after spending lots of money - is bigger box, faster disk, more memory etc...)

Happy to be shot down here but provide this in the cause of constructive debate.

[samgreco]

Just stream of conscienceness...

I really think that the answer here is going to be to have the system only have to read the file once. Because I think that rbziggy is right.

How do we get there? Someone much earlier mentioned the Virtual Audio Cable. It seems that the best way to synch would be to "patch" the wav output of whichever zone is to be the master to all of the inputs that you want it to go to. Like a patchbay, or a big Y cable.

The issue would then be volume control of each zone. Since you won't have indivdual Winamp instances. Most soundcards have volue controls on their mixers. That could probably be accessed.

Or could there be copies of the requested file put into a cache/ram drive or some such? Sounds kludgy.

Could you "stream" from one instance of Wnamp to the rest?...

End of stream.....

[trvtec]

Is it safe to assume that alot of the issues with volume control of independent zones are solved by having wall-mounted volume controls inside each room? That's the setup I have at the moment - I have a great room with HTPC (Xlobby of course), 9 rooms wired for audio and cat 5 drops to each room. From my home run, I have 4-conductor wiring running to a volume control and from the volume control, I have a pair of 2 conductors going up to the speakers in the ceiling. I'm very interested in getting some of this stuff to work (this is a magnificent thread really) and it seems like the only hiccup so far is volume control of independent zones. Since I have the setup I do, I should be able to just send line level down to the basement for each zone or put a server by the home run to provide line outs from multiple sound cards and control it all through XLobby. Does my logic seem ok here? I did want to extend a huge thank you to this board, just by searching around and lurking I've created a stable, multi-faceted front-end that impresses everyone that checks it out. Now if I could only get multizone and TV working, I'd be in business!

[samgreco]

trvtec,

First - Welcome!

Second - The individual volumes will certainly do the trick if you setup XLobby with output stacker. That will solve the synch issue and volume control.

It just bugs me that I can't make it work. I run my recording studio on a PC and I get 32 tracks without breaking a sweat. Now that system is built VERY well with an Ultra160 SCSI HD system. So CPU usage on drive accesses is virtually zilch.

Still we should be able to make this work.

[Marbles_00]

I'm rather curious to know if there are sync issues with people that run Audigy and Live cards using the KX drivers. I'm currently trying out a Live card and have independent zones with instances of Winamp. Each Winamp is driving a seperate stereo output. Now one of the output selections when using the KX drivers is KX Wave SBXXXX 0/1 which drives all channels. In therory one should be able to set up an "ALL Zone" instance of Winamp on that output channel, which should remain in sync as it is only one instance driving all outputs.

Though I guess then you are only limited to 3 synced zones (maybe 4 with a 7.1 Audigy card). For me, that would work, as my house isn't large enough to utilize more zones (was going to set up 4 zones total, 1 independent from the rest in the main/master bathroom).

I've talked also to Hjackson breifly over at the AVS forum and it would be interesting to hear his thoughts as it sounds like he has a fairly robust setup (using 6 soundcards), though from what he has told me is that he doesn't sync up more than three zones usually. (Sorry to put you in the spotlight).

[rbziggy]

I'm rather curious to know if there are sync issues with people that run Audigy and Live cards using the KX drivers. I'm currently trying out a Live card and have independent zones with instances of Winamp. Each Winamp is driving a seperate stereo output. Now one of the output selections when using the KX drivers is KX Wave SBXXXX 0/1 which drives all channels. In therory one should be able to set up an "ALL Zone" instance of Winamp on that output channel, which should remain in sync as it is only one instance driving all outputs.

Have you made this work on your setup? (i.e. 3 x stereo on the 0/1 output)

I have exactly the same (Audigy plus KX that is). While playing around, I tried using the 0/1 output (instead of 4/5, 6/7 and 8/9 which I use for current 3 zones). I'd hoped to get the stereo output on each of the 3 stereo zones (i.e. 3x2) but I only got stereo out of the 'front' pair (equivalent to 4/5 I think) and nothing out of the rest. I thought at the time that this was because 0/1 is actually a 5.1 setting and for that reason I'd obviously only get the front pair with a stereo pair.

I'd be most interested if you got 3 channels for XL multizone (and also because I use text to speech in one zone for announcements. Usually this is all I want but sometimes I'd like to broadcast on all zones and can't do this because the tts can only use 'one' soundcard.)

If so could you let me know the XL driver settings you use.

[Marbles_00]

The extent that I've personally have it working so far is outside of XL. I created three instances of Winamp and had each one playing individually on 4/5, 6/7, 8/9. I then created another instance and directed the output to 0/1 and swapped my amp into each analog output connection (I don't have a multichannel amp at this time, it's on my to do list). I could have sworn that I heard music coming out of each stereo pair from that one instance, but I will have to try it again to verify.

I'm also teaching myself how to set up zoning in Xlobby. I'm looking at Colby's skin (I like his 3D room images) and currently the Green2 (for Hjackson) skin. I understand how to set up the zones in the "F2" editor, but I don't get how to set up the zones in the skin, and the individual playlists for each zone.

I guess too, it also boils down to how the KX drivers are set up. Now there is a massive learning curve there. I was lucky that my card virtually worked right from the get go...call me lucky.

My only problem right now with this setup is that I'm having problems with getting Zoomplayer to output audio. Winamp works, PowerDVD works, but I have tried all the different settings in Zoom, but I can't get it to work. I know I'm doing something silly, but I don't know what

[rbziggy]

I guess too, it also boils down to how the KX drivers are set up. Now there is a massive learning curve there. I was lucky that my card virtually worked right from the get go...call me lucky.

Yeup - KX driver configuration is not trivial I don't think I understand a fraction of what they can do and I'm not sure if I need to either

Could you let me know the 'speaker setup' you have in KX. Mine is '5.1 direct path'. Perhaps I need something different.

Thanks

Richard

[Marbles_00]

I realized what I did to get all channels working. I created multiple out_ds.dll (out_ds1, out_ds2) and for each set up 4/5,6/7, or 8/9. I then used the output stacker to use the multiple out_ds.dll's. The only problem here is that when starting up Winamp, the last out_ds.dll setting overrides all the other out_ds.dll's.

Currently my surrounder settings are 5.1 - Movie, surround on, VCenterA:1.50, VRearA:1.00, VRearW:0.21, VRearD:0.0ms, Use Subwoofer output: ON, Bass Redirection: ON, Split Freq:200Hz. This would actually make it a custom setting then.

Using the above and setting your out_ds.dll to 0/1 will provide output to the center channel, and a LFE signal (well it does for me). I then experimented with the AC97 settings and played with 3DSE. It created a full range of sound between the center channel and LFE channel but it appeared out of phase.

I think a solid way to make it all work is figuring out the DSP control. I did a simple re-route between stereo_r of the xrouting box to the in_lfe input of the the surrounder box and had full audio out when using 0/1 on the LFE channel, but this would inadvertanly effect the 8/9 output (no output on the LFE channel). I haven't dwelled too much into it further yet, but I am planning on totally rerouting the DSP to make it work.

Okay, now I am really confused. In typing this post, and trying different things while I type, I now seem to have the LFE channel spewing out full frequency audio when using the 0/1 setting. I'm not sure what I have done to do that. I rechecked all the other channel and noticed that the center/LFE pair seemed to output the most bass, while the Surround L/R was the most attenuated (even with the above surrounder settings). I also noticed that the 8/9 setting seemed a little harsh when using that particular instance of Winamp. Some EQ fixing seemed to solve that problem. I'm going to reboot and check to see what happens...well after I finish this massive download I'm doing. If I loose that LFE channels full range, then I may have an idea as to what happened, and will try and recreate what I did....something to do with the output stacker config.